is being added to sports bars and restaurants. And what's the rationale for adding it to sports
bars and sports restaurants? Well, kind of, you know, to touch on what we just said earlier, that
it's the same, what makes it addictive to people, young guys, you know, usually on the age of 35 is
the target demographic, the peer pressure aspect, you know, being around in that sport, in that
environment, encourages people to wager constantly, relentlessly, and then with a combination of
alcohol involved as well, encourages people to make riskier financial decisions and really lose
track of how much they're losing. You know, no one's a good decision maker when they're
intoxicated. Mr. Burnell, I need to interrupt. Given that line of question, is it safe to say
that if the board were to deny the sports book at Chicky and Pete's that some of those same issues
that you're talked about alcohol interaction watching a game at a bar people are going to
gamble anyway this isn't going to prevent those you got to the exhibit that is up now a young
man sitting in with a bear in his hand I assume that's to make the point that he's drinking and
betting does it go away well again mr chairman your question goes to the kind of the heart i
guess of this matter is this is about putting a very you know dangerous thing for folks that
you're articulating well closer to a heavily residentially populated neighborhood you know
that that's the question is you're assuming that's the issue but they're assuming that the majority
of the people, if not all of the people who would be using this sport book facility live
in the neighborhood. I would venture to say that Chickie and Pete, the one on Packer Avenue
at least, its customer base are drawn from the region, not just Packer Park. Probably
more people who don't live in Packer Park frequent Chickie and Pete than people who
do live there. Mr. Chairman, if I read the park's presentation materials and I recall
that their presentation said that they expect to draw their base from within a mile of that facility.
And Mr. Chairman, even the memorandum that Mr. Mattiani submitted recently to the board
highlights the fact that parks is, that the market for this is the nearby neighborhood.
That's who the target market is.
I think that Parks admitted.
The same way that the nearby casino operates?
Well, I'm not here to speak about that.
I know, but there is a casino within three blocks of chicken pizza.
Look, I'll answer your question.
I'll make a stipulation for you if that would help things out, Mr. Chairman.
Of course, if you deny this special exception and this facility does not come to fruition, some people in the neighborhood will, of course, do sports betting through other ways.
And of course, if you deny this special exception
and this facility,
We agree with that.
They will go to the live casino.
They will do it at home.
They will go to a bar in New Jersey.
Of course, some will.
um we think that it's pretty clear that not all of them will um and you know you're making the
case that all of them will i don't think that's fair to say this is a neighborhood shopping center
you're going to hear testimony uh from another witness that this is right next to a bakery
and a dry cleaning place and a nail salon um and you know you can't if you're in packer park you're
not going to be able to avoid um this facility because just don't go in i understand that don't
go in that's all that's simple that's out of heart just don't go in i understand that and
it's a lot easier not to go in if it's if it's uh farther away and i think lots away okay well
well uh we're trying not to make matters worse here in packard park mr chairman we're not saying
everything's perfect we don't wish that casino was there um a few blocks away but we're trying
not to bring it closer and that's what parks is trying to do parks is trying to be amidst our
neighborhood in our neighborhood shopping center and so the you know those are the facts so mr
burnell let's let's keep going uh we're at 11 30 now um but uh i don't know if we'll be able to
finish now but uh um uh so bricks as you heard mr cullen say and as you know that they're also
offering um sports betting to people who want to pay in cash uh why is that service being offered
so it's for people who don't have credit cards and uh and people who don't want their spouses
oftentimes to see the commercialized gambling charges on their credit card statement by the
witness as to why parks is operating the way that it is speculation he doesn't work for parks he
doesn't know how parts operates and doesn't know why did they accept the payments that they accept
correct objection sustained objection sustained mr bernauer you're talking about the industry in
general is that correct the question that i understood to be was just not specific to parks
but the bricks and bricks and mortar sportsbook business model accepts cash for people so they
People who don't have credit cards and for those who have spouses or other family members can't see the gambling charges on the credit card statement.
Would you agree with me that it is inarguable that if someone does not have a credit card and they only have cash and that they wish to gamble on sports, that the sports book here in Chickie's and Pete's would allow them to do that in their neighborhood when they otherwise would not have an option to do that?
yes objection again go ahead what's the objection mike it's you're speculating he's speculating as
to how these people are going to gamble at at this facility i i posed the hypothetical and i think
it's clear so um you're all i don't get that well look we can go over it again we can we can do a
million hypotheticals on both sides of the argument and it just stick to the facts well
Gambling can be an addiction. It can be an addiction. Some people gamble. Some people
don't. Some people choose to gamble a lot. Some people choose to not gamble at all or
gamble a little bit. It's a personal choice.
Do you think people choose to become addicted?
Depends on how much you want to gamble. I mean, it's a serious question.
Well, do people choose to be addicted to drinking?
Well, I asked you that question, too.
Do they choose that?
Well, maybe they do.
Some people like to eat a lot.
Some people like to drink a lot.
You may call it an addiction.
Some people may just say it's not.
They like to drink more than others.
I'm still trying to figure.
I still want to get to the heart of this.
I'm trying to.
The harm that it's going to do to the immediate neighborhood.
Believe me, I'm trying to put on my case.
I think we can stipulate that there are problem gamblers
and problem drinkers and problem a lot of things in this world that there are organizations that
have been pointing that out to the public for years with all good intentions. And people are
going to make a decision whether they want to get off of drugs or stay on them or get off of
or get off of not drink as much and not become an alcoholic or become an
not drink as much and not become an alcoholic or become an alcoholic.
alcoholic. People make choices. This is about choice.
People walk, people walk up to that newsstand,
just outside picking chicken and pizza and buy a hundred dollars worth of
lottery tickets. It's just, it is what it is. I'm not,
I'm not condoning it. It's a fact.
Why aren't you condoning it?
I said I'm not condoning it. Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm not condoning it, but that's a fact.
CVS, 11th and Washington Avenue, I'm sure other CVSs, have a kiosk with lottery tickets.
You can bet on 50 different types of lottery tickets.
There's no one there saying to that person, are you 21 years old?
Show me your ID.
A 10-year-old kid can go into that place.
We've got to get rid of the lottery in this state.
people become addicted to buying lottery tickets and and there and then we should do away with
that and and as part of the reason that that's problem for that kid is that it's so convenient
in his neighborhood at that cbs they're not going to get into chicky and peach unless they're 21
i'm sticking with your i'm sticking with your hypothetical about the kid
who's doing underage lottery tickets i don't think it's a hypothetical but that's that's my
opinion all right well you think it's happening i think under 21 year old kids buy him i could be
wrong it could be wrong okay um let's keep going um what do you make of the fact mr burnell
that this proposal for a sports book is that it should be located inside of a restaurant
that allows kids and that this restaurant has an interactive video game component called
play to on the premises. What do you make of that? Yeah, I think this proposal for this neighborhood
is as extreme as anything I've seen in the country. The idea that you have an interactive
video game component on this site where the future of the commercialized gambling industry,
particularly online, is heading towards things like e-sports betting, which means wagering on
video games but but my my question my question mr burnell is that what do you make of the fact
that there are children inside of chickies and pete's a lot of children yeah again i think it's
outrageous i think it's an example of how extreme this proposal is that you're gonna have kids
exposed to and being normalized to commercialized gambling sports gambling you know when they're
going out to you know what is you know chickie and pete's brands itself as philadelphia sports
headquarters so if you're a passionate sports fan growing up as a kid you know like you're going to
be exposed to commercialized betting if you're going to sports betting if you're going to your
favorite sports restaurant objection the casino is a separate facility inside the the restaurant
it is not where you walk in and everybody sits there and gambles and that testimony was clear
not unlike not unlike a casino where people take their families the kids are not allowed on the
casino floor but they're off to the side of the casino floor in restaurants what's the difference
you think that's a good thing mr chairman i forget what i whether i think it's a good thing
i'm just you're making the case that this is a this is something that's going to encourage young
people then parents should not take their kids to casinos right and i bet you the same people
who are opposed to this go to casinos and take their families
you think that people going to chicken and peats for crab fries and hamburgers are the same people
going to taking their kids to casinos that's your that's your position thank you let's let's keep
going mr um burnell um will this increase problem gambling in this neighborhood absolutely i don't
think that objection i don't think that mr burnell has been been well speculation and i don't think
he's a licensed clinician or a licensed psychologist we're getting it who's appropriate
objection sustained objection sustained mr mr burnell why do you tell us the basis for your
statement because gambling addiction increases with proximity the more accessible it is and the
closer you are to it the more you suffer from gambling addiction it is speculation and again
as i've been saying for the last two hearings you don't need to go to chicky and pete's you can use
your cell phone anywhere anytime you want or your house phone if you still have one to make it back
i do open an account anywhere you want and you can use that account to gamble no matter where
you are any time of the day how about the frequency mr burnell is that a problem yeah again
Yeah, again, by putting in it closer to neighborhoods, the more frequent the commercialized gambling and people are participating in it, the more people get addicted to it.
by putting it closer to neighborhoods the more frequent the commercialized gambling
It's a lot easier to get swept up into it.
I want to show for the board.
Let me see here.
um this study in exhibit g it says the relationship between in-play betting and
gambling problems in australian context prohibited online in-play betting and the
takeaway here that i highlighted is that those who bet in play had higher problem gambling
severity scores than those who did not i'm also going and this thank you for this mr
For now, I'm also going to show you this next one, which says in play betting, sports broad class and gambling severity, a survey of Spanish sports bettors on the risks of betting on sport while watching it.
And this talks about gambling severity, sports watching, consumption of sports as an escape, and of course, alcohol while watching sports.
and i'll leave this for the board's perusal about the problems of sports gamblings in these
sorts of environments um let's finish out your testimony um mr burnell you know they're just
moving this 0.8 miles you know so the so the uh argument would go what's so wrong if they're
moving it just 0.8 miles. Again, I've looked at the lay of the land in this neighborhood and
its current location and the existing location there in the stadium district. Now you're moving
it into a neighborhood strip shopping center. You couldn't be getting deeper into a residential
neighborhood. We're involved across the country. We have not seen a proposal like this where you're
building something like this facility in a residential neighborhood, you know, in a family
restaurant that has kids and a place that brands itself as Philadelphia's sports headquarters.
Okay. My last question or two is, you've heard that Mr. Cullen say that they're going to cross
market or market or cross sell, I think his phrasing was, other gambling products by parks.
um what how does that strike you yeah i think you know parks uses as an opportunity
intensely to market online gambling to patrons coming in here and others also visits to their
parks facility in and ben salem you're essentially opening up a you know a parks outpost
outpost in packer park what was your phrase there outpost yeah you gotta you're opening up a parks
outpost in packer park at this location okay and that's going to be then they're going to cross
and they're going to cross sell their other products and okay uh i think that's all i have
for mr burnell let me look at my exhibits and uh mr mattione if you have any cross-examination
where i just have i just have a couple of questions for mr barnell
burnell i'm sorry mr burnell isn't it true that you are not a licensed addiction clinician
do you say the question one more time sir isn't it true that you are not a licensed
addiction clinician isn't it true yes
and isn't it true that all these studies you talk about they're largely talking about online
gambling? I mean, isn't online gambling a much greater addictive, highly addictive problem than
in-person gambling? No, that's not true. On exhibit C, it had 18.2% for online gambling and
7% for in-person sports gambling. So I think your own documents belie what you just said.
i think sports gambling as a as a form of gambling is more addictive than other forms
of commercialized gambling you know it's similar to slot machines and that type of experience
it is no question a highly addictive form of gambling compared to other forms of gambling
and any independent uh gambling researcher would would affirm that
online gambling that's speculation on your part strike that answer uh online gambling though is
much more addictive according to your own documents here yes we're not saying that it's
he's the witness not you questions for mr burnell yeah
The question is for Mr. Brunel.
I have one.
Is the question, just repeat, is your question, is online gambling more addictive than brick and mortar types of gambling?
And there are other forms of gambling that are more addictive than sports gambling, such as the lottery and the horse race.
Is that correct?
it depends on the lottery game no that's not correct daily games
no here says 7 and it says 5.7 for sports betting so for problem games anyway I have